VOL IV, 616
IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF TEXAS
FORT WORTH DIVISION
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
. CRIMINAL ACTION NO.
. 4:00-CR-054-Y
VS.
.
.
THOMAS REEDY (1)
. November 30, 2000
JANICE REEDY (2)
. 9:05 a.m.
LANDSLIDE, INC. (3)
.
VOLUME IV
TRIAL TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS
BEFORE THE HONORABLE TERRY R. MEANS
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE, and a jury.
APPEARANCES:
For the United States:
Ms. Terri M. Moore
Mr. Ronald C.H. Eddins
Assistant United States Attorneys
801 Cherry Street, Suite 1700
Fort Worth, Texas 76102
(817) 252-5200
For Defendant Thomas
Mr. Wes Ball
Reedy and Landslide, Inc.:
Ball & Hase
4025 Woodland Park Boulevard
Suite 100
Arlington, Texas 76013
(817) 860-5000
For Defendant Janice Reedy:
Mr. Michael P. Heiskell
Johnson, Vaughn & Heiskell
600 Texas Street, Second Floor
Fort Worth, Texas 76102-4612
(817) 877-5321
Official Court Reporter:
Eileen M. Brewer
501 West Tenth Street
Fort Worth, Texas 76102-3637
(817) 334-0104
Proceedings recorded by mechanical stenography,
transcript
produced by computer-aided transcription.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 617
I N D E X
GOVERNMENT'S DIRECT EVIDENCE
Voir
Direct Cross Redirect Recross Dire Court
WITNESSES:
Don Smiddy 620
623
624
Rex Rector
627 635
Sharon Girling 644
--
GOVERNMENT RESTS
652
MOTION: MR. BALL
652 DENIED 653
MOTION: MR. HEISKELL 653
DENIED 655
DEFENDANT THOMAS REEDY AND
LANDSLIDE, INCORPORATED'S DIRECT EVIDENCE
Voir
Direct Cross Redirect Recross Dire Court
WITNESSES:
Donna Kibbie 657
665
Frank Super 667
679
Catrina Day 684
695
Patrick O'Leary 701 729
747
DEFENDANT THOMAS REEDY
AND LANDSLIDE, INC. RESTS
748
DEFENDANT JANICE REEDY'S DIRECT
EVIDENCE
Voir
Direct Cross Redirect Recross Dire Court
WITNESSES:
Janice Reedy 754
789 821
DEFENDANT JANICE REEDY RESTS
826
GOVERNMENT CLOSES
826
DEFENDANT THOMAS REEDY AND
LANDSLIDE, INC.,CLOSES
827
DEFENDANT JANICE REEDY CLOSES 827
MOTION: MR. HEISKELL 831
DENIED 831
MOTION: MR. BALL
831 DENIED 831
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 618
I N D E X
GOVERNMENT'S DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE
No.
Description
Offered Admitted
DS-1 Payday
Documents, October 1998 622
622
DS-2 Payday
Documents, November 1998 622
622
DS-3 Payday
Documents, December 1998 622
622
DS-4 Payday
Documents, January 1999 622
622
DS-5 Payday
Documents, February 1999 622
622
DS-6.1 Payday Documents,
March 1999 622
622
thru
DS-6.3
DS-7.1 Payday Documents,
April 1999 622
622
thru
DS-7.7
DS-8.1 Payday Documents,
May 1999 622
622
thru
DS-8.10
DS-9.1 Payday Documents,
June 1999 622
622
thru
DS-9.10
DS-10.1 Payday Documents, July
1999 622
622
thru
DS-10.10
DS-11 Payday
Documents, A1 Webmasters 622
622
DS-12 Original
Business Check
622 622
SG-1 Family Photo 647 647
Summary 1
Income From Sales of Web Site 629
630
Access
Summary 2 AVS Versus KeyZ Web Site Sales
631 631
Summary 3 Proceeds From Indicted Web Sites
633 634
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 619
I N D E X
DEFENDANT'S DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE
No.
Description
Offered Admitted
DX-1
Chargeback Ratio Report
779 779
DX-2
Chargeback Ratio Report
780 780
DX-3 Payday
Report
784 785
DX-4 Adult
Check Signup
783 783
DX-5 Ad to
Sell Business
784 785
DX-6 Purchase
Offer
785 786
DX-7 Business
Plan
787 787
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SMIDDY - DIRECT - MOORE VOL IV, 620
P R 0 C E E D I N G S,
THE COURT: The government may call its next witness.
MS. MOORE: We'll call Don Smiddy.
THE COURT: Mr. Smiddy, were you previously sworn?
MR. SMIDDY: No, sir.
THE COURT: Please raise your right hand.
(The witness is sworn.)
THE COURT: You may be seated, sir.
DONALD SMIDDY,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Will you state your name, please, sir.
A. My name is Donald Smiddy.
Q. And how do you spell your last name?
A. S-M-I-D-D-Y.
Q. How are you employed, Mr. Smiddy?
A. I'm a United States Postal Inspector.
Q. And how long have you been a postal inspector?
A. Since 1991.
Q. Were you working as a postal inspector on September the
8th of 1999?
A. Yes, I was.
Q. Did you aid other agents in executing a search warrant on
Seaman Street here in Fort Worth, Texas?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SMIDDY - DIRECT - MOORE VOL IV, 621
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What was your job in executing that search warrant on that
day?
A. I was designated to be the custodian of evidence for the
documentary evidence that we were looking for.
Q. Now, were you the custodian of the computer equipment?
A. No.
Q. Okay. So just for hard copies, papers and whatnot, that
was found there.
A. That's correct, yes.
Q. Before coming to court today, Inspector Smiddy, did you
have a chance to go through the exhibits, some of which that we
are going to offer here today?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And are those exhibits that you in fact collected as the
records custodian?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Now, you've got a binder up there in front of you. Did
you previously go through that binder as well?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Would you look at Government's Exhibit DS-1 through DS-5.
You've actually looked at it before coming in here, haven't
you?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. And DS-6.1 through DS-6.3, DS-7.1 through 7.7, DS-8.1
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SMIDDY - DIRECT - MOORE VOL IV, 622
through 8.10, 9.1 through 9.10, 10.1 through 10.10, DS-11 and
DS-12. Are those all documents that you collected pursuant to
the search warrant on that date?
A. Yes, they are.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer those exhibits,
and I can go back over them.
MR. BALL: Your Honor, same objection as to the other
items that were gathered as a result of search warrants.
THE COURT: All right. Are they all the exhibits
that start with DS?
MS. MOORE: They're in order, yes, sir.
THE COURT: So you've now offered all of the exhibits
beginning with the letters "DS"; is that correct?
MS. MOORE: Let me just double-check real quick.
That is correct, Your Honor.
THE COURT: They're admitted. The objections are
overruled.
MS. MOORE: May I have permission to publish DS-1?
THE COURT: Granted.
MS. MOORE: Just DS-1 at this point.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Are these basically financial records that you collected?
A. Yes, they are.
Q. Okay. And is DS-1 pretty much representative of what was
known as the payday records?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SMIDDY - CROSS - BALL VOL IV, 623
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And is that representative of all the other
exhibits through DS-11?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay.
MS. MOORE: May I show DS-12?
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. And can you describe for us what DS-12 is.
A. Yes. This is a check, among others, that we seized from
the business Landslide, Incorporated, written on July 8th of
'99, to Beck Imports of Texas in the amount of $148,577.55.
Q. And the other documents, DS-1 through DS-11, are all those
financial records; is that right?
A. That's correct.
MS. MOORE: Pass the witness.
THE COURT: Will there be cross?
MR. BALL: Yes, Your Honor, briefly.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Inspector Smiddy, the exhibits admitted under the
alphabetical designation DS, where were they physically
located?
A. We retrieved them from Ms. Reedy's office at the Seaman
Street business of Landslide, Incorporated.
Q. All right. Were they on a computer, or did they appear as
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SMIDDY - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL IV, 624
hard copy paper?
A. They were hard copies just as you see them here.
Q. Were they in a drawer? Setting on top of a piece of
furniture? Where were they?
A. I believe they were in envelopes designated by month and
in a box.
Q. In a box?
A. I think so, yes.
Q. Was the box sitting on the floor?
A. I believe it was in a little cubby area inside of the
office.
Q. All right. Were there quite a number of other items,
documents and so forth, in that office?
A. Yes.
Q. And a computer or computers in the office?
A. There may have been a PC, but I was only dealing with the
physical evidence. I don't really recall.
MR. BALL: That's all. Thank you, sir.
MR. HEISKELL: I have a couple of questions.
THE COURT: Mr. Heiskell.
MR. HEISKELL: Thank you, Your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Inspector Smiddy, a number of the documents that you found
in Ms. Reedy's office -- Well, obviously all of the documents
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SMIDDY - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL IV, 625
were of a financial nature, is that correct, that you collected
and presented here today?
A. Here today, yes.
Q. And you have those DS documents in front of you as well,
the hard copies?
A. I'm sorry. I didn't hear you.
Q. Do you have the copies in front of you?
A. I think I have the originals, yes.
Q. Would you look at DS, for instance -- Just a second. I
apologize. A number of these documents have AVS signup with
the payday records. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you know what AVS stands for?
A. I believe it stands for Adult Verification System, I
believe.
Q. And do you recognize or realize that there are two
systems. There's the AVS system and the KeyZ system; is that
correct?
A. I don't have extensive knowledge of that, but I'm familiar
with that concept, yes.
Q. And even under some of the AVS systems below that there
are some entries, if you will, concerning KeyZ on certain of
the documents, while on a number of the other documents it's
strictly AVS. Isn't that true?
A. I don't know the answer to that. I haven't had time to
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SMIDDY - CROSS - HEISKELL VOL IV, 626
research these documents.
Q. Could you look through and verify that for us, please.
A. Okay. Was your question that there's KeyZ and AVS on each
page?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Yes, there appears to be.
Q. And did you engage in any conversation at all with
Ms. Reedy concerning these payday records?
A. I did not.
Q. Were you present when anyone else was interviewing her
about these records, sir?
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I'm going to object. This
exceeds the scope of direct.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. HEISKELL:
Q. Did you understand that a number of the AVS records had
absolutely nothing to do with any type of illegal sites at all?
A. I'm not that familiar with the case to know the answer to
that.
MR. HEISKELL: Thank you. That's all.
THE COURT: Will there be redirect?
MS. MOORE: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down, sir. Thank you.
Please call your next witness.
MR. EDDINS: Call Rex Rector, Your Honor.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL IV, 627
THE COURT: Mr. Rector, I don't recall swearing you
in previously; is that correct?
MR. RECTOR: That's correct.
THE COURT: Please raise your right hand.
(The witness is sworn.)
THE COURT: You may be seated, sir.
WILLIAM REX RECTOR,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Would you state your full name, please, sir, and where you
live.
A. My name is William Rex Rector. I live in Arlington,
Texas.
Q. Mr. Rector, if you'll pull that microphone just right
there in front of you.
And how are you employed at this time and in what
capacity?
A. I'm currently a senior enforcement accountant with the
Securities & Exchange Commission.
Q. And prior to you being employed by the Securities &
Exchange Commission, how were you employed?
A. I was an auditor in the Criminal Division of the U.S.
Attorney's Office here in Fort Worth.
Q. All right, sir. And for what period of time were you with
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL IV, 628
the U.S. Attorney's Office in that capacity?
A. I've been with the U.S. Attorney's Office in this capacity
since August of this year -- or late August of this year.
Q. What does your educational background consist of?
A. I have a bachelor's degree in physics, a bachelor's degree
in accounting, and I'm a certified public accountant.
Q. And how long have you been a certified public accountant
licensed in the state of Texas to practice?
A. I believe since 1977 or '78.
Q. All right, sir. Now, at my request during your time with
the U.S. Attorney's Office, did you participate in audit
activities in connection with the Landslide investigation?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And did you review various business records to prepare
summaries of the voluminous documents that those consisted of?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. You have there in front of you a diskette that has been
marked for identification purposes Government's Exhibit
JR-A-20, which has been admitted into evidence as a copy of the
QuickBooks of Landslide, and did you use that in your audit
activity?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Did you prepare a summary of income of sales of web site
access using that government's exhibit?
A. Yes.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL IV, 629
Q. And you have in front of you what's been marked for
identification purposes Government's Exhibit Summary 1; is that
correct?
A. I have it here somewhere.
Q. It's at the back, Mr. Rector.
A. At the back?
Q. Yes, sir. Almost all the way to the back of that binder.
A. Yes, here it is.
Q. Okay. Can you identify Government's Exhibit Summary 1?
A. Yes, I can.
Q. What is it?
A. This is basically just a schedule of the Landslide sales
and the costs attributable to those sales and their gross
profit.
Q. For what period of time?
A. September of 1997 through August of 1999.
Q. And does it truly and accurately reflect the figures
contained in the defendants' QuickBook records previously
admitted as JR-A-20?
A. Yes, it does.
MR. EDDINS: Offer Government's Exhibit Summary 1,
Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Judge, since the original source was, I
believe, the search warrant, we make the same objection as to
the other seized material.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL IV, 630
THE COURT: No objection, though, to the summary
nature?
MR. BALL: No, sir.
THE COURT: Okay. Objection is overruled. It's
admitted.
And can you give me a page reference, please.
MR. EDDINS: It's page 22, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank you.
MR. EDDINS: Request permission to publish to the
jury?
THE COURT: Granted.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. This shows total sales for a period of time September
1997 through August 1999 of 9,275,964, returns of 204,025,
total of 9,071,939. And you have also computed cost of sales
in terms of credit card discounts and site referral fees; is
that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And site referral fees would be what?
A. Those are the payments to webmasters.
Q. Which leaves a total of $6,103,517 for a gross profit of
$2,968,422; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
MR. EDDINS: And, Your Honor, this testimony is in
relation to all of the counts but particularly in connection
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL IV, 631
with the forfeiture allegation contained in the indictment.
THE COURT: And that is count?
MR. EDDINS: It's just a forfeiture allegation.
THE COURT: The forfeiture count at the end.
MR. EDDINS: Yes, Your Honor.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Mr. Rector, did you also compile from exhibits admitted
into evidence a compilation of sites, web site sales, in the
categories of AVS and KeyZ sites sold for August of 1999?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And you have in front of you what's been marked for
identification purposes Government's Exhibit Summary No. 2; is
that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And is that what that consists of?
A. Yes.
Q. Is this based on records obtained from the defendants in
this case?
A. Yes, it is.
MR. EDDINS: Offer Government's Exhibit Summary 2,
Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as the last exhibit, Judge.
THE COURT: Overruled. It's admitted.
MR. EDDINS: Permission to publish to the jury, Your
Honor?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL IV, 632
THE COURT: Granted.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Where, Mr. Rector, did you get the numbers 204 and 315
under AVS and KeyZ, number of sites sold in August of '99?
A. This information comes from the August payday report.
Q. All right, sir. And that shows a total of 519 sites sold
during that month?
A. Well, that's the number of unique sites that were sold
during that month.
Q. Okay. And when you have designated "number of sites," is
that -- You also have a column for number of transactions.
What's the difference between number of sites and number of
transactions?
A. Well, the number of sites here is simply the unique number
of sites. Many of those sites were sold more than once, so
that is the unique number of sites. The number of transactions
is simply the total number of transactions of which most of
those were sales transactions.
Q. All right. So if there were thousands of sites during
August of 1999, only 519 actual sites were sold; is that
correct?
A. Well, 519 -- That's correct. 519 unique sites were sold,
although many were sold more than once.
Q. Okay. And that produced a total revenue in August of
1999 as shown for AVS, 126,186?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL IV, 633
A. That's correct.
Q. For KeyZ 698,996, with a total revenue that month of
$825,182; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And then you've taken cost of sales reflected in the
payday reports and the business records of the defendant, which
shows a gross profit that month; is that correct?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. At my request, Mr. Rector, did you also put together from
these records a summary of proceeds to the defendants and their
company Landslide, Inc. --
A. Yes.
Q. -- strictly from the web sites alleged in this indictment?
A. Yes.
Q. All right, sir. And you have in front of you what's been
marked for identification purposes Summary 3; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. Is that what that is?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And is the source document for this summary compilation
records of the defendant admitted into evidence?
A. Yes.
MR. EDDINS: We would offer Government's Exhibit
Summary 3, Your Honor.
MR. BALL: Same objection as to the last two
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - DIRECT - EDDINS VOL IV, 634
exhibits, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Objection is overruled. It's admitted.
MR. EDDINS: May we publish it to the jury, Your
Honor?
THE COURT: Yes, sir.
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Would you explain to the jury how this summary lists the
sites and the information contained in the summary.
A. Well, this is a list of all of the sites that were
included in the indictment. The accounts are on the left-hand
side. The indictment site name is in the second column. The
webmaster responsible for that site is in the third column, and
Landslide's web site user name is in the fourth column. The
amounts that were paid to those webmasters for those sites are
in the fifth column, and the final column is the amount of
sales attributed to those sites, which is called proceeds here.
Q. All right, sir. Now, there is an indictment web site name
and a web site user name. Would you explain how, in your audit
of the business records of Landslide, you brought those two
together in order to attribute the monies to the sales of those
particular web sites and webmasters.
A. Well, there was a key piece of evidence called the links
table, which associated the user name, which was how the
accounting system was driven, with the web site, the full web
site name and the webmaster. And I used the links table.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - CROSS - BALL VOL IV, 635
Q. All right, sir. And are the proceeds that are shown in
the column to the far right actual tabulated rates off of the
business records of the defendants?
A. Yes. They were computed from the payday reports.
Q. All right, sir. And so that shows $1,290,412 total
proceeds from the 11 web sites named in the indictment; is that
correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And that would be actual dollars for those web sites.
A. Actual dollars, based upon the prices in the rates table.
Q. All right. And do you have a period of time for -- that
the Government's Summary Exhibit No. 3 covers, Mr. Rector?
A. Yes. It covers October of 1998 through August of 1999.
MR. EDDINS: I'll pass the witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Will there be cross?
MR. BALL: Yes, Your Honor.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Mr. Rector, what was the period of time that you worked
for the United States Attorney's Office?
A. June of 1990 through August of this year, 2000.
Q. All right. I gather prior to your departure from the U.S.
Attorney's Office in August of this year, you put some
substantial work in on this matter?
A. That's correct.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - CROSS - BALL VOL IV, 636
Q. In fact, we met some months ago at the U.S. Attorney's
Office. You were working on these matters then; is that
correct?
A. That's correct.
MR. BALL: If I can have up Summary 1, please.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Okay. This was the summary of sales for the period
September '97 to August '99; is that right?
A. That's right.
Q. And I note -- Is the term "sales" a term that you used in
creating this exhibit?
A. That term comes from the Landslide QuickBooks.
Q. All right. And when we look under the first grouping of
figures, "returns $204,025," correct, sir?
A. That's correct.
Q. What does that represent when it says "returns"?
A. Well, I believe it's, for the most part, refunds.
Q. All right. Are you familiar with the concept used in the
credit card industry in commerce, both e-commerce and in
general transactions that don't occur over the internet, called
a chargeback?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. All right. Are you familiar with a notion that if I
purchase something with a credit card I can call my credit card
company and complain that my goods are shoddy or it's a
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - CROSS - BALL VOL IV, 637
fraudulent transaction and I didn't use the card or something
like that, and the credit card company will then take that off
my bill, essentially, correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. If they assume my explanation is legitimate. True, sir?
A. That's correct.
Q. And then what happens when they take that off my bill, my
monthly credit card bill, what happens on the other end where
the merchant or the purveyor of goods or services is concerned?
A. It's charged back to the merchant.
Q. Okay. So is that money deducted from his proceeds, from
that sale?
A. That's right.
Q. All right. He may submit a whole batch of sales to a
bank, $100,000 worth of sales, but he may not collect every
dime of that because of some chargeback questions. Is that
true?
A. That's true.
Q. All right. Did you calculate, in coming up with the
figures on Summary No. 1, chargeback figures that any banks may
have applied to Landslide?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. All right. What was the figure of chargebacks? Is it
included in any of the figures we see here?
A. It's included both in the returns and in what they have
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - CROSS - BALL VOL IV, 638
credit card discounts. What this is, is basically what
Landslide had in their income statement. I did, however, do
extensive testing of one bank account, the Chase Bank account,
which was 80 percent of the sales, and verified -- I compared
everything from the sale -- from the accounting records back to
the bank records, and I discovered that what they had done in
their accounting system is they essentially had commingled
returns, chargebacks, discounts, they got them all mixed up.
And this is not a reconciliation of that, which I did do, but
this is simply what their records show. And the credit card
chargebacks are included in both returns and credit card
discounts, as you see there.
Q. All right. And are you telling us that these are the
proceeds actually received, or is that a different figure?
A. Well, the sales, the sales are what their bank account
showed. Well, let me put it this way. Their sales are what
their books showed. I verified 80 percent of that by comparing
to the bank records.
Q. All right. You did an 80 percent comparison?
A. I did a 100 percent testing, or a 100 percent tracing, of
all bank transactions into the Chase Bank account. The Chase
Bank account accounted for about 80 percent of the sales. I
didn't look at the NationsBank account.
Q. Okay. Additionally, if I buy something with a credit card
for, let's say, $30 and I call my bank or the credit card
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - CROSS - BALL VOL IV, 639
company and say I don't like what I got or something and I
initiate a chargeback, is the amount that's deducted from the
merchant's proceeds $30, or do they apply some additional costs
or penalties to that person for the chargeback?
A. Well, I'm not sure. I think it would probably depend on
the credit card vendor, but whatever the chargeback amount was,
and different credit card companies have different -- they call
it different things, adjustments and so forth. But whatever
that number is, I found to be included either in returns or
discounts in what you see here.
Q. All right. And is this total down here, gross profit
2,968,000 et cetera, is that from all of the web sites that
were under the umbrella of Landslide, either AVS or KeyZ?
A. That's correct.
Q. Would that include, as you understand how this case
worked, would that include sites that showed pictures of adult
subjects?
A. Yes, it includes all of their business.
Q. The entire amount of content that was available through
web sites under the umbrella Landslide?
A. Yes.
Q. All right.
MR. BALL: Could I have Summary No. 2, please.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. All right, sir. This particular exhibit, you just
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - CROSS - BALL VOL IV, 640
selected a month to show some percentages and so forth. Is
that what this represents?
A. Yes.
Q. And that would be the month of August of 1999?
A. That's correct.
Q. Was that the month that preceded the search and seizure of
the business, premises, of Landslide?
A. I believe so. It was their last full month.
Q. All right. And, again, at the top of this you designated
this as AVS versus KeyZ web site sales. That's on the exhibit,
correct, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And you've got a gross profit down -- total on
the right, 315,162, correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Do you know if Landslide collected any of that money?
A. In August I am trying to recall if -- I can tell you in a
minute. Yes, I believe they did.
Q. All right. Well, are you aware, do you know whether or
not Superior Bank -- was that the bank that was processing
these transactions?
MR. EDDINS: Your Honor, this goes beyond the scope
of direct. We would object.
MR. BALL: Judge, I would submit -- Can I clarify
with another question, Judge?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - CROSS - BALL VOL IV, 641
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Are you aware of whether or not any bank that would have
paid these sales actually froze, as a result of the search and
seizure of Landslide, the payment of the proceeds from August
sales?
MR. EDDINS: Your Honor, we would object to that. It
goes into other bank records that this witness has not
testified about, that are not part of his summary.
THE COURT: It would seem so.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Do you know, sir, do you know whether or not that event
occurred from anything that you reviewed in your CPA
examination?
A. I did not get into the Superior Bank credit card area.
The main area I looked at was the Chase Bank.
Q. All right. When we submit, when I sell -- if I'm a
merchant and I sell something, the payment, there is some time
delay, is there not, in getting my money from the bank?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Do you know what that typically might be, or
do you know?
A. I'm not really sure what it would have been in this case.
MR. BALL: Could I have Summary No. 3, please.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. All right. Mr. Rector, this is a summary of proceeds from
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - CROSS - BALL VOL IV, 642
the listed sites for the time period from -- I forget when you
said in 1998 sometime until August of '99?
A. October of '98 through August of '99.
Q. All right. I gather you were not involved in the review
of the content of any of these sites during that time frame.
That would be matters investigated by other people?
A. I have seen quite a bit of the material from these sites.
In fact, from all of them.
Q. Pardon?
A. In fact, I've seen material from all of these sites.
Q. All right. Well, let's take a site, for example, Blackcat
Lolita Photo Series. Do you know what images-they were showing
during the entire period of -- I believe you said October of
1998 to August of 1999.
MR. EDDINS: That goes beyond the
scope of the
direct.
MR. BALL: Judge, I think it relates to the
allegations in the forfeiture count.
MR. EDDINS: But he's asking the witness about
knowledge about the contents of the site, and it's immaterial
to his summary testimony, Your Honor. It goes beyond the
scope.
THE COURT: I agree. Sustained.
MR. BALL: All right.
BY MR. BALL:
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
RECTOR - CROSS - BALL VOL IV, 643
Q. In this particular summary, the figure $1,290,412, do you
know whether or not the entirety of that figure represents
proceeds or money from illegal child pornography or not, the
entire dollar figure there?
A. Yes.
MR. EDDINS: Your Honor, that's the jury's decision.
We will object to him asking this summary witness about a legal
conclusion and a factual conclusion that's up to the Court and
jury.
THE COURT: I think you can answer. The question was
in this particular summary, the figure 1,290,412, do you know
whether or not the entirety of that figure represents proceeds
or money from illegal child pornography or not, the entire
dollar figure there.
Do you know, the question is do you know?
THE WITNESS: I would say, yes, because it's based
upon those specific sites you see there and I have seen images
from each and every site.
MR. BALL: All right. I believe that's all. Thank
you, sir. I'll pass the witness.
MR. HEISKELL: No questions.
THE COURT: Is there redirect?
MR. EDDINS: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down, sir.
Hearing no objection, this witness is also free to go.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
GIRLING - DIRECT - MOORE VOL IV, 644
The government may call its next witness.
MS. MOORE: We'll call Sharon Girling.
THE COURT; Ms. Girling, if you'll please step around
here, I'll administer the oath.
(The witness is sworn.)
THE COURT; You may be seated.
SHARON GIRLING,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Will you state your name, please, ma'am.
A. My name is Sharon Girling.
Q. And, Ms. Girling, where are you from?
A. I'm from the United Kingdom.
Q. And what is it that you do for work?
A. I'm a case officer on a pedophile investigation for the
National Crimes Squad. I'm a detective.
Q. So you're a police detective.
A. Yes, I am.
Q. In London?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. Okay. Did we bring you here basically to talk about
several counts of the indictment?
MS. MOORE; I need to point that out, Your Honor.
Count 3 and 47, 4 and 48, 5 and 49, 6 and 50, 14 and 58, 17 and
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
GIRLING - DIRECT - MOORE VOL IV, 645
61, 20 and 64, and Count 89.
THE COURT: Thank you.
MS. MOORE: I forgot to say that.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Detective Girling, have you had a chance to look at some
photographs involved in this case?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Okay. And what was the purpose of you looking at those,
photographs in our case?
A. To see if I could recognize any of the children in those
photographs.
Q. And, Detective Girling, did you recognize any of the
children in the photographs of our case?
A. Yes, I do. I know some of the children in those
photographs.
Q. Which children do you know?
A. I know censored and I know censored.
Q. And are you saying censored?
A. Yes, I am.
Q. c-e-n-s-o-r-e-d?
A. That's correct.
Q. censored and censored?
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. And how is it that you know censored and censored?
A. I was an officer concerned in the investigation into their
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
GIRLING - DIRECT - MOORE VOL IV, 646
abuse, and I regularly see the children. In fact, I saw them
last Wednesday prior to coming over here.
Q. Where do they live, Detective Girling? You say you saw
them last Wednesday.
A. They live in Manchaster in England.
Q. And why did you see them last Wednesday?
A. Why did I see them? I just went to make sure they were
okay and to explain my reasons for coming over here.
Q. Okay. How old is censored?
A. censored was born in 1989. She is now 11 years of age, and
censored is 12.
Q. And how old is censored?
A. He's 12 years of age.
Q. Okay. And how is it that you know these children? You
were involved in an investigation of their abuse, you say?
A. Yes, I was. And as a result of that I've interviewed them
on numerous occasions and spent some time with them.
Q. And were they sexually abused?
A. Yes, they were, quite severely sexually abused.
Q. By whom?
A. By their stepfather censored.
Q. And did you recognize any photograph that we provided you
of -- Was censored in those images?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. Okay. Is censored in prison?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
GIRLING - DIRECT - MOORE VOL IV, 647
A. Yes, he is.
Q. Detective Girling, you have a photograph book up there.
MS. MOORE: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Let me show you what's marked as Government's Exhibit SG,
I guess that's for Sharon Girling, No. 1. Do you recognize
that?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is that a photograph of the children?
A. That's a family photograph of all of censored's -- his
own two children and his three stepchildren.
Q. And the stepchildren would be censored and censored?
A. That's correct. censored is in the back left corner, and
censored is in the front right.
Q. Does it fairly and accurately represent the family
photograph of those kids?
A. Yes, it does.
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, I would offer SG -- It should
be on page 22 of the list, SG-1, family photo.
MR. BALL: No objection.
THE COURT: Admitted.
MS. MOORE: May I publish, Your Honor --
THE COURT: You may.
MS. MOORE: -- SG-1?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
GIRLING - DIRECT - MOORE VOL IV, 648
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Okay. Detective Girling, there should be a little pointer
up there under all of that.
MS. MOORE: May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Okay. Would you use that and point to the child that is
censored?
A. (Pointing) That's censored.
Q. Okay. And censored is 11, you say?
A. She's 11. She was born in May of 1989.
Q. And would you point to the child that is censored?
A. (Pointing) That's censored.
Q. And they're natural brother and sister?
A. They are, yes.
Q. And which other one is their natural brother?
A. (Pointing) That's censored.
Q. And the other two little girls?
A. Are censored's own children with their mother.
Q. Okay. Did you look through a lot of our exhibits to
determine whether or not censored and censored are in those images?
A. Yes, I have.
MS. MOORE: May I show the witness, Your Honor,
SN-C-4?
THE COURT: Yes.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
GIRLING - DIRECT - MOORE VOL IV, 649
MS. MOORE: That's long enough.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Did you determine who that was?
A. That was censored.
Q. censored?
A. Yes.
MS. MOORE: SN-C-5 for Count 4 and 48. The previous
one was for Count 3 and 47. This is for Count 4 and 48,
SN-C-5.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Was that censored and censored?
A. That's censored and censored, yes.
Q. Okay.
MS. MOORE: SN-C-6 for Count 5 and 49.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Was that censored?
A. That's censored abusing censored, yes.
MS. MOORE: Okay. For Count 6 and 50, SN-C-7.
A. That's censored and that's censored.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Okay.
MS. MOORE: For Count 14 and 58, SN-E-5.
A. That's censored and that's -- her sexual abuse is by her
father.
BY MS. MOORE:
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
GIRLING - DIRECT - MOORE VOL IV, 650
Q. That's censored?
A. That's censored, yes.
MS. MOORE: For Count 17 and 61, SN-F-5.
A. That's censored.
MS. MOORE: Okay. And for Count 20 and 64, SN-F-8.
A. That's censored.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. How old was censored there?
A. Six.
Q. Over what period of time did this abuse of censored take
place?
A. About two and a half years.
Q. Okay. So we see her from age 6, then, to --
A. To about eight and a half.
Q. And how old would censored have been when the abuse started
with him?
A. He was age seven when it started and finished when he was
age nine.
Q. Okay. Did I ask you to look at some photographs that
represent Count 89 of the indictment?
MS. MOORE: Your Honor, the possession count.
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. That are labeled TR-A-13 all the way through 78, TR-A-78?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And did you do that?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
GIRLING - DIRECT - MOORE VOL IV, 651
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And are those images -- Do they contain photographs of
both censored and censored?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. As well as censored?
A. Yes, they do.
Q. Now, some of those images, Detective Girling, don't have
the child's face. It would just be a body part. How is it
that you know that that would be censored or censored?
A. I've interviewed censored, and we sat down with the
images and he certified each of the image as being a picture
taken by himself and has identified on each picture where that
picture was taken and who the children in those pictures that
he was abusing were.
Q. Okay. He abused more than just censored and censored?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Okay. Are there other identifiers in the photographs
besides you knowing that censored told you those were his
pictures?
A. Yes. Some of the background in the room, bed sheets that
we've seized from his home address, and we've taken photographs
of his home address and some of the wallpapers and furnishings.
Q. So you could see the background stuff and recognize the
room.
A. Yes.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
GIRLING - DIRECT - MOORE VOL IV, 652
Q. I'm not going to display those other photographs, but are
you confident that those images, the TR-A-13 through TR-A-78
are of censored and censored?
A. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that the children
in those pictures are censored and censored.
MS. MOORE: I'll pass the witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Will there be cross?
MR. BALL: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down. Thank you.
THE WITNESS: Thank you.
THE COURT: You may call your next witness.
MS. MOORE: The government rests, Your Honor.
THE COURT: We'll take a brief recess and return here
for the beginning of the defendants' case. I won't give you an
exact time, but it won't be long.
(Jury out, 9:54 a.m.)
THE COURT: Let's be seated.
Mr. Ball, do you have a motion?
MR. BALL: Yes, Your Honor. Under Federal Rule of
Criminal Procedure 29 we would move for judgment of acquittal
as to all counts. The government has failed to prove and
present evidence, having rested their case in chief, sufficient
to sustain the conviction of the offenses listed. I haven't
broken out the counts because I wasn't sure what Detective
Girling's testimony would be. We would move to -- one of the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 653
reasons for the motion would be that at least some of the
photographs are not identified as real children, and we would
move to dismiss those counts of the indictment, the first
series of counts, to go under the theory of 2252 as opposed
2252A.
THE COURT: Let me ask Ms. Moore: Do you agree that
any of the photographs have not been shown to be photographs of
real children?
MS. MOORE: No, I don't, Your Honor.
THE COURT: I didn't think so, either.
That portion of your motion is denied.
MR. BALL: That's all I have.
THE COURT: Motion is denied.
MR. HEISKELL: Your Honor, on behalf of Janice Reedy
under Rule 29(a) of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure we
would ask for a judgment of acquittal in that the mens rea or
requirement of the government to prove beyond a reasonable
doubt as to Ms. Reedy's knowledge as to any of these alleged
illegal sites or images produced under the particular counts,
and certainly included in the possession count --
THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. I can't hear you.
MR. HEISKELL: I'm sorry.
THE COURT: Why don't you back up about a paragraph.
MR. HEISKELL: Okay. I think I was at that point in
which I alleged that the government failed to prove beyond a
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 654
reasonable doubt the mens rea of the mental state required of
Janice Reedy as to all of the counts, including the possession
count, concerning her knowledge of or participation in the
images or production of the images or sale of the images
alleged in the indictment.
As a matter of fact, the evidence has shown that Ms. Reedy
played the role of a financial person within the Landslide,
Inc., company. She is not listed even under the records of
incorporation of Landslide, Inc., as any part of the management
team or director or corporate officer. There's no testimony of
direct evidence that she knew of the sites themselves as far as
the images being produced or that have been transmitted over
the internet. Simply that she participated in the payment to
the webmasters, and the chargebacks and other matters that the
Court heard.
We would urge the Court under Rule 29(a) to rule for
judgment of acquittal on all counts as to Janice Reedy.
THE COURT: Ms. Moore, I believe that knowledge of
Janice Reedy can be inferred at least. Do you believe that
there is evidence in the record that is stronger than
inference?
MS. MOORE: Yes, Your Honor. I would cite
specifically the testimony of Inspector Steed Huggins from
yesterday that where he interviewed Janice Reedy and she said
that she knew that they had to go Landslide to get to sites
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 655
like F'ing Little Kids and whatnot. And then his testimony,
likewise, that Thomas Reedy said that Janice Reedy knew as well
as himself.
THE COURT: I agree. The motion is denied.
Let's -- ten minutes, or do you need a little longer?
MR. BALL: Judge, we were expecting to be prepared to
proceed at noon. There are a couple of witnesses -- Well, the
witness list given us yesterday at the conclusion of the
testimony by the government has been shortened by -
MS. MOORE: It has, Your Honor. I think I said
yesterday they should have them here probably about 11:00
o'clock, and we did cut two witnesses.
MR. BALL: There was a David Cruz and a Frank Super.
And I visited with Ms. Moore this morning about a witness we
intend to call named Donna Kibbie who is an FBI agent from
Pennsylvania who is here and who was mentioned in the
government's opening statement as going to be a witness they
called. And I don't know if she is across the street or out in
the hallway. She was going to be our first witness.
THE COURT: But you believe she's nearby?
MR. BALL: That was my understanding.
MS. MOORE: We can get her, Judge. I've got somebody
coordinating all these people.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. BALL: And I have some witnesses appearing at
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
VOL IV, 656
Mr. Heiskell's office at 11:00.
THE COURT: You have what?
MR. BALL: Witnesses appearing at Mr. Heiskell's
office next door here at 11:00 in anticipation of being a
little bit earlier than the noontime than we had anticipated.
And for the Court's information, I think we can present
our case and get it done this afternoon.
MR. HEISKELL: Judge --
THE COURT: Let me ask you a
question before you
start.
If we start at 10:30, can you get your case started?
MS. MOORE: Judge, our coordinator just said
Ms. Kibbie is here, so that witness is here.
THE COURT: I'll give you until 10:30 and piece it
together the best you can, and if we have to take an early
lunch break, we can do that.
MR. BALL: All right. Thank you, sir.
MR. HEISKELL: And just to supplement that, Judge.
We thought and anticipated Mr. David Cruz was going to be a
witness, who was going to be a relatively longer witness than
the others this morning. In fact, there were about 20 exhibits
that were related to him and we've been going over those and
now we have to kind of backtrack. But, yes, I think we can
start at 10:30 and see where we are after that witness.
THE COURT: Well, let's start at 10:30 and make it to
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
KIBBIE - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 657
11:30, at least. If we don't have enough testimony to get to
11:30 we may have to cut earlier and take an early lunch break
and then that will give you some time. Take an hour and a half
for lunch. That will give you time to wash down a sandwich and
get the rest of them together.
We'll be in recess until 10:30.
(Court in recess, 10:00 a.m. until 10:36 a.m.)
THE COURT: You may call your first witness.
MR. BALL: Your Honor, we would call Donna Kibbie.
That's K-I-B-B-I-E.
THE COURT: Ms. Kibbie, if you'll step forward, I'll
administer the oath. Please raise your right hand and be
sworn.
(The witness is sworn.)
THE COURT: You may be seated in the witness chair.
DONNA KIBBIE,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Could you tell us your name, please, ma'am.
A. Donna Kibbie.
Q. And how are you employed or occupied, Ms. Kibbie?
A. I'm a special agent with the Federal Bureau of
Investigation.
Q. And where do you live, please, ma'am?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
KIBBIE - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 658
A. I work out of the Philadelphia office.
Q. All right. Philadelphia, Pennsylvania?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. All right. How long have you been with the Federal Bureau
of Investigation?
A. Just over 20 years.
Q. All right. And how long have you been at the
Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, office?
A. Since 1984.
Q. 1984?
A. Right.
Q. All right. Let me direct your attention to -- back in the
spring time frame, I believe, or maybe early 1999. Did you
have occasion in your duties as an FBI agent to receive an
inquiry, a complaint, concerning something on the internet?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Is there an internet service provider or an
ISP with the name spree.com?
A. Yes. It's in our area.
Q. Is the operation of spree.com physically located within
your area?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And was that the source of the complaint concerning
something on the internet?
A. Yes.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
KIBBIE - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 659
Q. Was there an individual, a lady there by the name of
Ingrid Cook, that was the source of that complaint?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Did spree.com essentially, in simple terms,
offer people to be able to put up free web pages?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And at that particular time were you
particularly familiar with the internet and how it operated
with computers, or not much so?
A. No, I was very much a novice.
Q. All right. And did that complaint concern a site on the
internet that was using spree.com's services that had something
to do with child pornography type material?
A. Right.
Q. All right. Do you recall the name of the site that was
the subject of this complaint?
A. No. I just recall the screen name or the Musix 2,
M-U-S-I-X 2, was the name used.
Q. All right. And did you receive documents from Ms. Cook
setting out various items such as what the site looked like,
what the web page looked like?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Do you recall the name Lolita Land at all?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that sound like maybe that was the name of the site
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
KIBBIE - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 660
that was being complained about?
A. It had something to do with the site. I'm not sure that
that was -- I don't how the names of the sites worked, but that
had something to do with the site, yes.
Q. All right. And did you endeavor, after receiving that
complaint, to try to determine who was putting that site on the
internet and showing illegal child pornography images? Did you
make an effort to try to determine that?
A. When I got the complaint, they furnished me the name that
the person had used to sign up, to get that free web site.
They also furnished an e-mail address. So what I wanted to do
was to find out if that person were in the United States or in
a foreign country.
Q. All right. And did you have the name as a point of
reference that might have some information about who this
individual was that was putting this site on the internet by
the name of Tom Reedy?
A. Well, they told me, spree.com, Ingrid Cook told me that
keyz.com was a credit card company that processed credit cards
so that people could access that site.
Q. All right. So did you get information regarding the
possible location and ownership of keyz.com to make an inquiry
with them?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Did you, pursuant to your duties, get an order
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
KIBBIE - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 661
from a court, a federal court in your jurisdiction in
Pennsylvania, ordering Landslide or its representatives to
produce documents identifying who might run Lolita Land?
A. Right.
Q. And was that order, in some fashion, sent to Landslide and
its organization?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And, ultimately, did you have any telephone
conversations with any individuals at Landslide?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Do you recall who you might have had conversations with?
A. I spoke with Tom Reedy and a Carol someone.
Q. All right. Does the name of Carol Clark sound familiar?
A. It could be if that's what was on the note.
Q. And, in fact, did you -- when you conducted this
investigation, make some notes or documentation about what you
were doing?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. And, in fact, in law enforcement is that an
important thing to do to try to document, in some fashion, what
you're doing in an investigation?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. So that if you're asked to recall it a year
later or so, you've got something to look at and refer to, to
assist you. Is that true?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
KIBBIE - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 662
A. True.
Q. And you said you did have a conversation with Tom Reedy?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. Did someone at Landslide, either Mr. Reedy or
someone else at that location, describe the general -- in a
general sense what they did as being an adult verification
service, keeping children from looking at pornographic or
sexually type material?
A. I don't recall that we were that specific. I just recall
and wrote down that they had said they were an adult
verification service.
Q. All right. And did they ultimately send you some
documentation in response to the court order identifying from
their records who this individual might be that runs Lolita
Land?
A. Yes. Eventually they did.
Q. And, incidentally, as part of the court order that was
issued by the federal judge in Pennsylvania, was there any
portion of that that directed the recipient of that order, that
being Landslide and Mr. Reedy, not to disclose to the subject,
or the target, of the investigation that this investigation or
order was ever issued?
A. Yes, there was.
Q. All right. In other words, part of the court's order in
Pennsylvania was that it would be improper for -- or they would
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
KIBBIE - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 663
be in violation of that court order if they disclosed to
Mr. Greenberg in Russia that this inquiry had been made. Is
that true?
A. That's true. I do that routinely.
Q. All right. Because if someone were to tip someone off, it
might impede an investigation, correct?
A. Correct.
Q. All right. In fact, was the information that you received
back from Landslide identified an individual by the name of
Boris Greenberg?
A. Correct.
Q. And Mr. Greenberg was identified as residing in what
country, ma'am?
A. In Russia.
Q. All right. And did you -- What did that tell you as far
as your investigation was concerned, that Mr. Greenberg, the
runner of Lolita Land, actually resided outside the United
States in the country of Russia?
A. They told me it was out of our jurisdiction. It was in
Customs' jurisdiction.
Q. All right. Did you close your investigation at that
juncture?
A. I didn't really open an investigation. That was just an
inquiry to see if we had sufficient grounds to open an
investigation.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
KIBBIE - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 664
Q. All right. Did you pass that investigation on or refer it
to anyone else or any other agencies like Customs or anyone?
A. No, not until much later.
Q. All right. And, incidentally, in the conversation that
you had with Mr. Reedy or any others at Landslide, did you ever
inform them or advise them that what they were doing was wrong
or improper or in violation of any federal laws?
A. No.
Q. All right. And were you aware at the time you conducted
this inquiry of Mr. Greenberg in the early part of 1999 that
there was any investigation occurring down in the Northern
District of Texas by the federal government of Landslide, Tom
Reedy, or any others associated with that business?
A. No, I was not.
Q. When did you learn, if you did, that there was such an
investigation down in this area of the country?
A. I think sometime last summer.
Q. All right. Did you receive an inquiry from
representatives of the federal government here in the Northern
District of Texas as to what you might -- what your activity
was in this inquiry you've discussed with us?
A. Yes.
Q. And sent them -- Did you talk to them and send them some
material regarding that inquiry?
A. Yes, I did.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
KIBBIE - CROSS - EDDINS VOL IV, 665
Q. And what you recalled about it; is that true?
A. (Nods head) Yes.
Q. As far as the FBI in your area of Pennsylvania was
concerned, was the court order issued by the federal judge in
Pennsylvania complied with?
A. Yes.
MR. BALL: I believe that's all. Thank you, ma'am.
I'll pass the witness.
THE COURT: Additional direct?
MR. HEISKELL: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Cross?
MR. EDDINS: Yes, Your Honor. If it please the
Court.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MR. EDDINS:
Q. Ms. Kibbie, this inquiry that caused you to come into
contact with Landslide and Thomas Reedy was not an
investigation; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. This was on the level of simply an inquiry based on a
complaint.
A. Right.
Q. To see whether there was anything there.
A. Right.
Q. At any time that you contacted Thomas Reedy or Landslide,
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
KIBBIE - CROSS - EDDINS VOL IV, 666
did anyone ever tell you that they were participating in the
sale of child pornography sites?
A. No.
Q. Did they ever report to you child pornography sites?
A. No.
Q. If they had, would you have referred that to other law
enforcement agencies and taken that information and conducted
an investigation of child pornography yourself?
A. Absolutely.
Q. The court order that counsel was asking you about, which
required -- which is the way confidential wire communications
are obtained from people such as Landslide and these
defendants, did anyone at Landslide or Thomas Reedy tell you
that Boris Greenberg was distributing child pornography?
A. It seems like when I spoke to Mr. Reedy he might have said
it was probably Japanese, but not anything more specific than
that.
Q. Did he tell you that it was child pornography?
A. You know, I don't recall that he -- He may have, but I
don't recall that he said it was child pornography. I just
recall that he said it was probably Japanese girls.
Q. Now, counsel asked you about warning the defendants. Was
there anything in your knowledge that would have required you
to think that there was a necessity for warning these
defendants or Landslide or anyone that you contacted there that
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 667
they were in violation of the law if they didn't tell you that
they knew they were distributing child pornography?
A. No. They were just a credit card company. I was under
the understanding that they were just a credit card company or
an age verification service.
MR. EDDINS: I'll pass the witness, Your Honor.
THE COURT: Redirect?
MR. BALL: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down, ma'am. Thank you.
Please call your next witness.
MR. BALL: Frank Super.
MS. MOORE: Is Donna Kibbie finally released, Your
Honor.
THE COURT: Unless there's
objection.
MR. BALL: That would be fine, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You're free to go as well. Thank you.
Please raise your right hand and be sworn.
(The witness is sworn.)
THE COURT: You may be seated, sir.
FRANK B. SUPER,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Could you tell us your name, please, sir.
A. Frank B. Super.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 668
Q. And how are you employed or occupied, Mr. Super?
A. I'm a special agent with the Federal Bureau of
Investigation.
Q. All right. And how long have you been a special agent
with the FBI?
A. About three and a half years.
Q. And what sort of occupational line of work were you in
prior to becoming a special agent with the FBI?
A. I was an officer in the United States Marine Corps.
Q. I gather to qualify yourself to become a special agent
with the FBI, did you attend a course of training supplied to
all FBI agents at a location, at the FBI location, at Quantico,
Virginia?
A. That is correct.
Q. All right. And let me direct your attention to the matter
at hand here. Did you ever have occasion to have any contact
with a company or individuals at a business known as Landslide?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. What is your best recollection of the first inquiry or
contact you might have had with the business or people at
Landslide?
A. Okay. In the summer of 1997, I'm estimating around the
August time period, the exact date being a bit unclear, but I
know it was during the summer of 1997, my supervisor at the
time, he told me that he had received some information from our
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 669
Dallas office that a business located in Fort Worth by the name
of Landslide, that someone had been on the internet and had
seen some child pornography.
The complaint came through the Dallas office. Apparently
the complainant was someone over in the Dallas side of the
metroplex. And my supervisor gave me a routing slip or some
type of a piece of paper with an address on Belknap Street in
Fort Worth, the name Landslide, and I believe there was a --
there might have been a name of a web site possibly on there by
the name of Child God or something like that. He asked me if I
would go to the address on Belknap Street, look up the owners
or those who are responsible for Landslide, and find out what
was going on.
I did so. I went down to Belknap Street at the address.
The address on Belknap Street was a red brick building on the
south side of the street. I went in there and inquired about
Landslide. The people there at that office told me that
Landslide was actually across the street in a white building on
the north side of Belknap.
So I went across the street and went upstairs to the
offices of Landslide, and when I got to the offices no one was
there. So I went to the bathroom and when I came out of the
bathroom a lady and a young man were just coming into the
office area from outside. She identified herself as Carol
Clark. She told me she was the office manager for Landslide.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 670
I asked her -- Of course, I identified myself as Frank Super,
FBI. I showed her my credentials and I asked her if I could
speak with the owner of the company. There was a complaint
regarding some child pornography.
She said she didn't know anything about that, but she told
me that if I would give her my card that she would have the
owner call me. I went ahead and gave her my card, and then I
left Landslide.
Q. All right. And was that contact, the individuals that you
had contact with at Landslide, generally cooperative with you?
A. Yes.
Q. Providing whatever information you asked for that they
could at that time?
A. Yes, very cooperative.
Q. All right.
A. What happened next was I went back to my office. Over the
next two weeks or so, Mr. Reedy, Thomas Reedy, he attempted to
contact me on the telephone. I attempted to call him back. We
kind of played phone tag for a couple of weeks. We finally got
in contact with one another.
Mr. Reedy told me that he was familiar with the web site
Child God. He told me that Child God was an Indonesian child
pornography site -- or, correction. He told me it was a
pornography site that sometimes slipped child pornography into
its web site.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 671
Q. All right.
A. And he informed me that this had happened periodically
with some web sites. He told me his policy regarding this type
of occurrence when child pornography came on to -- or through
his system and his folks picked it up was that he would tell
the web site "stop doing that or we're going to cut you off
from our system. We're not going to allow you to go through
our domain any longer."
And Mr. Reedy explained to me that with Child God being an
Indonesian site that they were -- From that point on, if they
didn't stop, they were going to be cut off from using his
domain, period.
Q. Okay. And did he describe generally how his business
worked as far as verifying the adult status of people that
wanted to look at various types of pornography and issuing them
passwords and user names and getting a credit card? Did he
give you a general description of how his business worked?
A. I believe he did; that his business was a credit card
verification service that verified that you're an adult for
these web sites.
Q. All right.
A. During the course of the conversation, since Mr. Reedy
informed me that he was aware of some of these web sites that
would then slip into this child pornography thing, you know,
being a fresh young agent out of Quantico, we had had classes
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 672
on our Task Forces across the United States called Innocent
Images which were combatting child pornography, I thought there
might be an opportunity at this point to possibly get some
information about illegal activity. And I said, hey,
Mr. Reedy, if you get some more of these web sites that deal in
child pornography, especially ones that originate in the United
States where we have some jurisdiction, why don't you go ahead
and give me a call.
Q. All right. And was Mr. Reedy's response that he would do
that?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. He seemed willing to cooperate in that
particular endeavor, correct, sir?
A. That's correct.
Q. And the web site that was the subject matter of the
routing slip that you got was child God as best you recall; is
that right?
A. That sounds familiar, yes.
Q. All right. And Mr. Reedy told you that that site
occasionally slipped in some child pornography. He seemed to
be aware of that; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. He used the term "slipped in"?
A. I can't recall the exact term or how it was couched, but
he was aware that Child God had put child pornography in
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 673
through his domain and that it was wrong, that they weren't
supposed to do that. They knew it, and he was going to tell
them to stop doing it or he was going to cut them off.
Q. All right. Now, he advised you that that site he believed
to be someone in Indonesia, in the country of Indonesia?
A. That is correct.
Q. All right. What was your reaction to learning that as far
as your ability to do anything with regard to the individual
running Child God in Indonesia?
A. Well, after Mr. Reedy and I had our conversation, I went
and spoke with my supervisor. We documented the information on
a routing slip. We passed the information up through our chain
of command. It was our opinion that, just mine and my
supervisor's, that because the web site in question was in
Indonesia, we really didn't have any jurisdiction there and we
went ahead and -- well, we believed there was nothing else we
could do.
It appeared that Mr. Reedy was cooperating, that he
understood there was a problem there and he said he was going
to take care of it. We didn't have any other complaints in
Fort Worth, so we went ahead and just routed the information up
through the chain of command and left it at that.
Q. All right. As part of your inquiry and investigation, did
you actually go to the site Child God on a computer somewhere
and attempt to look at it?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 674
A. No. No, I didn't.
Q. All right. And was your opinion about the jurisdictional
question, was that a subject matter, the conversation with
Mr. Reedy when you told him, well, look, if you see something
in the United States give me a call.
A. I think I did discuss that briefly, yes.
Q. And might you have referred to the Task Force, Innocent
Images, during the course of the conversation, that there was a
national task force?
A. Yes. I think I did inform Mr. Reedy that, yes, hey,
there's a nationwide effort called Innocent Images where we're
going after these child pornographers. If you get some more
information that originates in the USA, give us a call and
we'll go after it.
Q. All right. Did you later have a subsequent contact with
Landslide or individuals of that business?
A. Yes. The next year around August of 1998 time period, our
Hong Kong office sent us a lead, which was a request to gather
some information regarding the Sri Lankan chief of police.
Apparently the Sri Lankan chief of police's credit card had
been used to purchase some pornography on the internet. And I
guess the subscriber information came back to Landslide.
So at that time I went ahead back over to Landslide, and I
spoke with Ms. Clark again. I asked her -- I had this
information regarding this credit card number. Can you tell me
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 675
what this credit card was used to purchase. She got on her
computer and said, yeah, it's been used here. And I can't
remember at this point if she printed it out for me there or if
I went back to my office and then she faxed it to me. I can't
remember but she did provide the information which had the IP
address where the billing was occurring from.
As a result of her information she gave to me, we were
able to trace that the credit card purchases were actually
coming from Sri Lankan and it gave where the IP provider was at
and all that.
Q. All right. Now, this was an assistance of the United
States government to Sri Lankan officials as requested through
the Hong Kong office, correct?
A. That is correct.
Q. So were the people at Landslide with regard to the
information you requested cooperative in providing you the
documentation that you needed to assist in this matter?
A. Yes. And I think as I recall, Mr. Reedy even called me up
and said, hey, did you get what you needed from Ms. Clark. And
I said, yes, thank you.
Q. All right. And as it turned out -- Did Mr. Reedy ask you
in the conversation did that work out, or, did they find out who
that was or something? Do you recall having a conversation
where you might have related it turns out it was the police
chief's son or something?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - DIRECT - BALL VOL TV, 676
A. I can't recall if I told him that. I recall that it was
or it appeared to be the police chief's son at the time.
Q. All right.
A. But I can't recall if I told Mr. Reedy that or not.
Q. All right. Now, this particular -- that particular part
of your investigation regarding the credit card, did you make a
report and create documents --
A. Yes.
Q. -- and forward to Hong Kong or Sri Lanka?
A. As per normal procedure, a report of my conversation was
created with -- the report of my conversation with Ms. Clark
was done; however, when sending reports that are going to be
seen by foreign governments, the bureau policy is that a
letterhead memorandum is done, which has some different
procedures as far as mentioning names and that sort of thing.
So I had to actually make two reports, and those were sent to
Hong Kong. And then Hong Kong, of course, would forward the
letterhead memorandum to the Sri Lankan chief of police and
they would take action as necessary.
Q. Okay. You were careful to follow the FBI's protocol in
creating and reporting what your investigation had shown,
correct, sir?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, with regard to the other matter of inquiry of Child
God, did you similarly create documents, memorandums of
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 677
interviews, and information gathered during the investigation
of that inquiry?
A. No. On that particular inquiry, we had received the
complaint in an unofficial sort of a phone call, and my boss, I
think, wrote it down on a routing slip. "Here, Frank, go check
that out," which isn't all that unusual. The initial
investigation that I did after I did it and speaking with my
supervisor, there didn't seem to be anything there. So there
was no official complaint form filled in, no official report.
Reports aren't always done on complaints if it seems like
there's nothing there. And, remember, that at the time I had
only been at the field office here for a couple of months, and
I was still kind of getting my feet on solid ground, so to
speak, as far as all the procedures the FBI does follow.
Q. All right. We've had a conversation I think a week or a
few weeks ago; is that correct, sir?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you acknowledge that perhaps hindsight would have been
a better practice to more accurately document the matters of
that inquiry?
A. I think 20/20 hindsight, of course, knowing what I know
now, three years of experience helps a whole bunch. If I was
to do that much investigation now where I actually go somewhere
and talk to people, I would have definitely written it down on
a complaint form, at least on a complaint form, and document it
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 678
that way.
Q. And you indicated you did maybe make some notes on the
routing slip or something of that form. Have you attempted to
locate that document so that you might refresh your memory to
be a little bit more clear on dates and things of that nature?
A. Yes. When I first heard of this -- the case with
Landslide, I did a very extensive search of my files in Fort
Worth, of the files that I kept in another room. I traveled to
the Dallas field office where these types of crimes -- at the
time in '97 when we looked into this, this complaint came from
our computer folks. So if the information would have been
written down and sent to Dallas, it would have been to the
Dallas squad and put into the Dallas information file.
I traveled to Dallas. I spent a day there looking through
their information files, and I didn't find it anywhere.
Q. All right. And as we sit here today, you've not been able
to locate that document, correct, sir?
A. That's correct.
Q. All right. And, incidentally, in the course of your
contacts with Landslide, Mr. Reedy, Carol Clark, or anyone else
associated with that business on the two occasions and in the
-- I think maybe there was a follow-up phone call from
Mr. Reedy about did you get what you were looking for, did you
ever advise Mr. Reedy or anyone else at Landslide to stop doing
what they're doing?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 679
A. To stop doing their business?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. No.
Q. All right. Or that their business was wrong or illegal
under any federal law?
A. No.
Q. All right. Thank you, Agent.
MR. BALL: I'll pass the witness.
THE COURT: Is there additional direct?
MR. HEISKELL: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
CROSS-EXAMINATION
BY MS. MOORE:
Q. Agent Super, why didn't you advise him to stop running his
business?
A. Well, from what he told me, he was running a legitimate
business, albeit, it's adult pornography sites. He told me
that child pornography would sometimes come through his domain,
through his Landslide, and when it did he said he would call
the people and tell them to stop it or he would stop servicing
them.
Q. So let me see if I've got this right. You show up there
to ask about this complaint where somebody said there was child
porn, and he tells you, "I'm in the credit card verification
business. Occasionally something like this comes through. I
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 680
tell them to stop it; if they don't I cut them off."
A. That's correct.
Q. And you took the man at his word.
A. Right.
Q. And you were how long out of school?
A. About two to three months.
Q. Okay. And with that two to three months' experience you
took a man at his word.
A. Correct.
Q. And you didn't go a step further with it.
A. The only other step I did was talk to my supervisor about
Q. And you relayed what you just relayed, hey, it
occasionally happens, he warns them, and it looks like there's
nothing here.
A. Exactly. My supervisor who at the time had 13 years
experience told me, hey, doesn't seem like there's anything
there. Let's send this up to Dallas and you're done.
Q. Now, Agent Super, did you have any idea that Thomas Reedy
and Landslide and Janice Reedy had a financial agreement with
foreign webmasters where they would -- foreign webmasters who
supplied child pornography on the internet?
A. No.
Q. Where they would keep 40 percent of the income that was
derived from child pornography and forward on 60 percent to the
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 681
webmasters that hosted the child pornography?
A. No, I wasn't aware of that.
Q. You didn't have a clue, did you?
A. No.
Q. Did you have a clue as to whether or not Mr. Reedy knew
that those sites were up and running and that he was monitoring
them?
A. No.
Q. Did you have a clue that he would sometimes chastise a
webmaster for his "lack of content" if customers complained
that it wasn't dirty enough?
A. No.
Q. You didn't know any of that back when you dropped by that
office?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever meet the man in person, by the way?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. This was all just a quick phone call?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay. And did you have a clue that Children of God was
still running in 1999?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. And this was an inquiry you made in the summer of '97?
A. That is correct.
Q. Okay. Now, you say your second time that you had contact
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 682
with him was over this chief of police from Sri Lanka's credit
card. Do you know whether the chief's kid was buying adult
porn or child porn?
A. I think that the web site in question -- I can't remember
the name of it and I wouldn't be able to tell you if it was
child porn or regular porn.
Q. Did the name bring to mind that it might be children?
A. No. It didn't have anything child mentioned in it.
Q. So it was like, oh, the chief's kid got his credit card
and looked at some pictures.
A. That's correct.
Q. Okay. And the complaint was the chief thought somebody
was adding something to his charge card and for y'all to go
look at it.
A. That is correct.
Q. But, again, you don't know which one it was, but you
certainly had no reason to think it was child porn?
A. That is correct.
Q. Now, you say you wanted to try to see if maybe, even
though you just had a couple of months training, you thought
maybe this guy might be a good source of information in the
event child porn came through his business, he could call you
and you could establish a rapport with somebody that might
actually be able to lead you to stuff down the line.
A. That is correct.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
SUPER - CROSS - MOORE VOL IV, 683
Q. And you said, man, if this comes across your desk I wish
you would call us because we've got Innocent Images out here
that can investigate this.
A. That is correct.
Q. Did he call you ever, Agent Super?
A. No. I never had any contact with him between the August
'97 time period until I had a lead from Hong Kong and he called
and said did you get what you needed and, yes, thank you.
Other than that, nothing.
Q. But not one time did he ever pick up that phone and call
you and say, hey, this is what's going on. There is child
pornography.
A. No, he never called.
Q. Not one time.
A. No.
Q. Now, did you advise him, hey, you're doing a good job
there, buddy. You keep those sites rolling.
A. I never had occasion to speak with him to tell him that,
and I never did have a conversation like that.
Q. Okay. The brief little conversation you had was just
exactly what you described on two different occasions that
lasted (snaps fingers) that long.
A. That's correct.
Q. There was no investigation any further into it.
A. No.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
DAY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 684
MS. MOORE: I'll pass the witness.
THE COURT: Is there redirect?
MR. BALL: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may step down, sir. Thank you.
Any reason why Mr. Super may not be released?
MR. BALL: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You're free to go as well, sir.
Please call your next witness.
MR. BALL: Catrina Day, please.
THE COURT: Would you raise your right hand and be
sworn.
(The witness is sworn.)
THE COURT: You may be seated in the witness chair.
CATRINA DAY,
having been duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BALL:
Q. Could you tell us your name, please, ma'am.
A. My name is Catrina Day.
Q. And where do you live, Ms. Day?
A. On the outskirts of Manchester in England.
Q. All right. Have you lived your whole life in England?
A. Well, England and Scotland, in various parts, yes.
Q. All right. What do you do in England as far as work or
activity?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
DAY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 685
A. I am -- due to mild cerebral palsy and a night terror, it's
a sleep disorder, I am on incapacity benefit or invalidity
pension.
Q. All right. Do you engage in any activities in an effort
to try to generate some revenue?
A. Well, yes, I did join an AVS service.
Q. All right. Do you run any kind of web sites or have a
presence on the internet?
A. I do, yes.
Q. And what sort of web site do you run on the internet?
A. It's basically a site of adult content, just displaying
myself and another female adult.
Q. All right. Does your site have any child, what might be
called child pornography or child content?
A. No.
Q. Is there any particular subject matter within the
categories of adult-type material that people might want to
look at that your site focuses on?
A. Well, I mean, you do get a lot of people, adults, that are
interested in transsexual. So that is the main reason that
people would -- people who have a fetish for transsexuals and
that sort of thing.
Q. All right. And are there other sites that you're not
involved with on the internet that deal with the subject matter
of transsexuals?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
DAY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 686
A. Yes, plenty.
Q. All right. And does the focus of your site on
transsexality have anything to do with your own personal
circumstances?
A. Well, yes. I mean, initially I suppose it was that I -- I
quite enjoyed the fact of my new body shape when I started on
hormone treatment.
Q. All right, ma'am. Let me stop you right there. I guess
we need to go ahead then: Are you, in fact, a transsexual?
A. I am a transsexual.
Q. And can you tell us what that means?
A. It means that -- Well, five years ago I started on the
course of hormone treatment after seeing a psychiatrist. And
then after two and a half years when I was financially able to
afford the surgery, I then went for the surgery.
Q. All right. And in fact, at birth your gender was male; is
that correct?
A. That's right.
Q. Do you presently travel -- Did you travel to the United
States on a British passport?
A. I did.
Q. And what gender is that passport issued under?
A. Catrina Day, female.
Q. All right. When did you have the surgery that changed
your gender?
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
DAY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 687
A. I had the surgery in March 1998 in Belgium, Europe.
Q. All right. And do you present yourself in your daily life
in the United Kingdom as a female?
A. I do, yes, as near as possible.
Q. All right. Prior to becoming -- engaging in the hormonal
treatments and so forth, when your gender was male, had you
ever been married?
A. I had been married on two occasions.
Q. All right. Did those two wives pass away from illnesses?
A. They did. My first wife had multiple sclerosis. She had
it when I met her. She was wheelchair bound. I felt a need to
be needed and she needed to be cared for. And so we met and
within a short period of time --
MS. MOORE: Judge, I'm going to object to the
relevance of his first wife and his second wife.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. You said you were married on two occasions and those
marriages concluded with the death of your wives?
A. That's right.
Q. So were you operating in the United Kingdom, at least at
that time as a male gender?
A. I was a male, yes.
Q. All right. Now, when you went into -- Let's talk about
the web site. Did you become involved or use with your web
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
DAY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 688
site anything known as an adult verification service?
A. I did.
Q. All right. Did you ever have occasion to use the adult
verification service operated in the United States known as
Landslide, KeyZ, AVS?
A. I did.
Q. All right. Do you recall about when that might have been?
A. Sorry. Could you repeat the question?
Q. Yes. Can you recall when that might have been
approximately?
A. I think it would be about four years ago, approximately.
Q. All right. And was that particular AVS service the first
one that you engaged in business with?
A. I think it was possibly one of the first ones, yes.
Q. Did you use other AVS type services from other companies?
A. Yes. I did use a company called Adult Jack, but when I
found -- I had many people visiting my site but not joining on
my site so it was not a very financial gain whatsoever to me.
Q. All right. Does the web site you currently offer
presently use any kind of AVS type service?
A. It does, yes.
Q. What is that business called?
A. Real AVS.
THE COURT REPORTER: I'm sorry. Could you repeat
that, please.
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
DAY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 689
THE WITNESS: Real AVS.
THE COURT REPORTER: Thank you.
BY MR. BALL:
Q. R-E-A-L AVS.
And when you got involved with the Landslide AVS type
service, did you have to travel to the United States or visit
with those folks?
A. No.
Q. Were you able to do that over your computer?
A. I was.
Q. All right. And was the signup participation process with
Landslide's AVS service particularly difficult or not
difficult?
A. Well, it wasn't difficult, but what you generally have to
do with I think most AVSs, you have to agree not to put certain
content on the site.
Q. All right. Now, what we're talking about, the content on
the site, does that refer to pictures or images that the
viewers see that access the site?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. Who controlled, with regard to your experience with
Landslide, AVS, who controlled the content of the web site you
ran?
A. Me.
Q. All right. And was that content hosted in the United
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
DAY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 690
States with Landslide or was it hosted elsewhere?
A. Where? It was posted with Landslide but it was by FTP,
what is known as a file transfer protocol, which I would
operate from my home computer and I would send the images via
the FTP protocol to Landslide's servers.
Q. All right. Were the images stored on Landslide servers or
stored on your computer?
A. They would have been stored on Landslide servers.
Q. All right. And when someone wanted to purchase your site
when you operated with Landslide, can you tell us a little bit
about how that worked?
A. Well, what would happen is on my instruction page, which
would be very soft, nonexplicit scenes, there would be a little
box or whatever saying Landslide; to join Landslide, click
here. The person would click on the Landslide button and they
would then be presented with a form in order to give their
credit card details and to perhaps choose a password and a user
name.
Q. All right. Who would do the verification of the credit
card as to whether it was valid and so forth?
A. Landslide.
Q. And after a person was approved, where would they be
allowed admittance? To your site? Where were they directed at
that point?
A. I think what would happen they would then be given a
U.S. DISTRICT COURT
DAY - DIRECT - BALL VOL IV, 691
multitude of sites they could choose to go to. I mean, they
could either go directly back to my site, to the main page, to
see the contents of my page, or, I mean, it might just be a
question of they happen to be on my page and decided they may
not have an interest in transsexuals but wanted to join an
adult verification system. But because it was my web site that
they joined through, then I would get the commission from that
web site.
Q. All right. Do you recall what the price was and what your
percentage was?
A. I've forgotten. I think it was various. One month's
membership was X number of dollars. Six months. I think most
of the AVSs, they tend to have a varying degree of membership,
depending on the length of time you're required to be with that
service.
Q. All right. And if someone wants to go on the internet and
find your service, how do they go about doing that?
A. Well, they might go to a search engine such as Yahoo, or
any of the -- Well, any of the search engines or whatever. A